(Wang Xudong. Photography/Reporter of this magazine Liao Shunting)
Dialogue Direction Director of the Palace Museum Director Wang Xudong:
Different cultures should respect each other, conservativeness will go downhill
Reporter of this magazine/Ni Wei
Published on 2021.11.15 The 1020th issue of " China News Weekly "
"When doing things according to the rules, it will not be so complicated." In Jianfu Palace Garden , the Palace Museum Director Wang Xudong talked about the complexity of managing the Forbidden City to "China News Weekly". "If you don't follow the rules and do things according to your own ideas, it will be quite complicated." The interview with
is extremely difficult to make. Wang Xudong, who has a low-key style, rarely faces the media. However, the Palace Museum's leading position in the cultural and museum field and its own hot searches always push him to the forefront.
In April 2019, the Palace Museum ushered in a remarkable handover of "head". Without warning, Wang Xudong, who was the director of Dunhuang Research Institute at the time, came to Beijing from Gansu and took over as the "Internet celebrity director" Shan Jixiang , who had a high public favorability. Looking back on that succession, he said he was not mentally prepared either.
Wang Xudong, who is not familiar to the public, took over this highly anticipated museum with curious and looking at him. He was born in Shandan, Gansu, graduated from , , geological engineering at Lanzhou University, and worked at the Dunhuang Research Institute for 28 years. He is an engineering expert and an expert in the field of local ruins protection. In the past two years, he has been publishing papers full of formulas and data. Before the age of 52, except for visiting study in the United States and Japan, most of his study and career were in Gansu, and now he still has a clear Gansu accent.
The two and a half years since he took office as the Forbidden City has not been smooth. The celebration of the 600th anniversary of the completion of the Forbidden City , which has been preparing for several years, encountered a global epidemic and was greatly reduced. The Forbidden City has been closed for 3 months. Especially before the epidemic, the Forbidden City had fallen into several negative public opinions.
Due to the dual influence of the style of the ruling party and the epidemic, the exposure of the Forbidden City has slightly decreased in recent years. But in fact, outside the public's perspective, a series of changes have taken place inside the Forbidden City. For example, the Forbidden City has lowered the daily passenger flow limit from 80,000 to 40,000, and will implement it for a long time. This move is for the proper protection of cultural relics in the Forbidden City, and also provides the audience with a better visiting experience. Wang Xudong frankly expressed his tremendous pressure and made up for the shortcomings of more viewers being unable to visit by accelerating the construction of the "Digital Forbidden City".
Like previous presidents of the Forbidden City, what Wang Xudong is most worried about is fire. Now, part of the commercial space outside of Shenwumen has been vacated for the new fire brigade. The lighting in major buildings such as the three halls will be cut off before finding a safer and safer solution to eliminate the fire hazards caused by electricity use.
In addition to this, what changes did Wang Xudong bring to the Forbidden City?
From the "small place" he mentioned to the metropolis, from the desert town in the northwest to the center of the capital, this "civilian dean" may have brought a civilian perspective to the Forbidden City. He repeatedly expressed the importance of introducing an external perspective to heritage research on exchanges and cooperation. He also reflected that behind the exquisiteness of royal objects is luxury, at any cost. If resources are allowed to flow more to the people now, can we create a life aesthetic for the whole society?
Dunhuang, as an important town on the ancient Silk Road and a hub for the integration of east and west, naturally contains the cultural gene of inclusiveness and openness. With this vision, he also saw the same factor in the Forbidden City. He felt that the spiritual core of the Forbidden City was not only luxury and grand, but also openness and tolerance. At present, cultural relics and museums should be used to build exchange platforms to promote understanding and goodwill between different countries and people. Within the numerous palace walls, he looked back at Dunhuang and saw a wider world. The ideas of
need to be practiced through more specific actions. The Forbidden City at that time may have been a more open and diverse perspective.
On October 26, at the Jianfu Palace Garden of the Palace Museum, Wang Xudong and China News Weekly talked about cultural exchanges, epidemics, passenger flows, and the North Campus, and reviewed the changes in their mentality after taking charge of the Palace Museum.
"Cultural cannot be the only one,
Whether it is small or small, you must respect it."
China News Weekly: After you came to the Forbidden City, the cooperation between the Forbidden City and Dunhuang has increased significantly. The "Traveling to the Old Away - The Forbidden City Dunhuang Special Exhibition" on display is the Dunhuang Exhibition that has come to the Meridian Gate of the Forbidden City in 70 years. How did the curatorial idea come from?
Wang Xudong: Dunhuang exhibition was held in the Forbidden City. In fact, our predecessors did it in the early 1950s. This year marks the 100th anniversary of the founding of the Communist Party of China. We have a tacit understanding with the Dunhuang Research Institute, which is to showcase some important achievements in protection, research, inheritance, etc. under the leadership of the Communist Party of China. It can be said that it hit it off. The exhibition of
not only presents a dialogue between two world cultural heritage sites, but also tells us that cultural exchanges and mutual learning may lead to a newer cultural form and bring us the power of innovation. We can see this openness and tolerance in Dunhuang, and we can also see it in the Forbidden City. Chinese culture has continuously absorbed foreign cultures in history, and has also formed our cultural confidence under the mutual influence and innovative development of cultures in different regions within the country. This is not blind confidence.
China News Weekly: When you elaborate on the cultural connotation of the Forbidden City and Dunhuang, you mentioned two keywords: openness and inclusiveness. Is this connotation also meaningful in the present?
Wang Xudong: There is no doubt about this. Because we have seen that in history, when you are open and inclusive, the country and nation will develop upward; when you are closed, conservative and conceited, you will go downhill. Where do these history come from? On the one hand, in ancient books and documents, on the other hand, it is necessary to excavate in the evidence of cultural relics and heritage. The Forbidden City and Dunhuang have left us with physical witnesses.
China News Weekly: How is the openness and tolerance of the Forbidden City reflected?
Wang Xudong: The Forbidden City is a royal palace and political and cultural center of the Ming and Qing dynasties. We are a multi-ethnic country with diverse regional culture, ethnic culture, religious culture, etc. So we can see the excellent cultures of different regions of China, even foreign cultures, as well as religious cultures such as Buddhism, Taoism, , and shamanism, which gather and exist at the same time in this royal palace. This is an open and inclusive way.
The culture of a nation cannot represent such a multi-ethnic family, so we must respect each other and respect the culture of a nation with a small population. Culture cannot be the only one. No matter whether it is small or small, we must respect it. You can maintain national unity and national unity under the awareness of national community , and you can see such a cultural form in the Forbidden City.
China News Weekly: What longer-term cooperation plans will the Forbidden City and Dunhuang be?
Wang Xudong: After the opening of this exhibition, we held a very small but very important seminar, and many research topics were found at the meeting. The two parties have reached an agreement to organize their teams to use the cultural relics from each other's heritage as research objects to explore its value, so that our minds will be bigger and our vision will be broader.
China News Weekly: An external vision, is it?
Wang Xudong: You will find that many things are understandable, not isolated. If you use the knowledge reserves and research methods of the Forbidden City scholars to study Dunhuang, there will definitely be new achievements; similarly, if you use the perspectives and methods of the Forbidden City scholars to look at the Forbidden City, I believe there will also be new achievements. This is not only a problem of "1+12", but there may be infinite possibilities.
(On September 22, people visited the "Dunshift from the Old World: The Palace Museum's Dunhuang Special Exhibition" in the Mogao Grottoes. Photo/China News)
The Forbidden City is most afraid of fire, and the lighting of the three halls on the central axis is stopped
China News Weekly: Your work experience has been in Dunhuang for nearly 30 years. In the past two years, you have arrived at the Forbidden City. What are the differences in the management of these two world cultural heritages?
Wang Xudong: There are indeed big differences in management. Dunhuang Mogao Grottoes is not only far away from big cities, but also small cities, just on the edge of the Gobi Desert. Mogao Grottoes is a trinity of caves, murals, and colored sculptures. The materials are stone, soil, pigments, plus some grass, hemp, etc. The Forbidden City is a huge wooden palace complex with nearly 2 million sets of cultural relics, which are announced to the public as more than 1.86 million sets. In fact, there are still many cultural relics being sorted and graded, which will definitely exceed 2 million in the future. The Forbidden City is located in the center of the political and cultural center and has attracted attention across the country. The environment, existence form, cultural relics and other aspects of the two are different, so management cannot be replicated and the challenges are also different.
But no matter what, the rules of cultural relics protection are the same. There is another particularly consistent point, that is, the Forbidden City and Dunhuang have entered the stage of preventive protection together. To protect cultural relics, we must grasp the rules and not do things that violate the rules.
China News Weekly: What are you most worried about after you arrive at the Forbidden City?
Wang Xudong: What we worry about most is fire. As long as there is no fire, we will have time to face other protection issues. Other diseases are gradual processes, but fires are devastating. So on the first night I came to the Forbidden City, President Shan took me to patrol the firefighting and explain safety issues.
When Dean Dan was the dean, one thing that everyone paid great attention to was banning smoking. All the presidents of the Forbidden City put fire prevention first. Now we still have many loopholes, and we must introduce the latest technology to eliminate these hidden dangers in the bud. We hope that the fire brigade will never send a police officer, and once it comes, it will prove that we have not done our job well.
China News Weekly: All previous deans have done a lot of work in firefighting. Are there any new means in recent years?
Wang Xudong: The most important thing now is to increase patrol efforts and reduce fire hazards. We have stopped lighting in many electrical appliances, especially the important buildings, including the three halls on the central axis. Stop before you find a better way to lighting, and don't rush. Fires caused by electrical appliances account for the highest proportion of all fires, according to statistics, reaching 40%. If the risks of these 40% are controlled, the hidden dangers will be greatly reduced.
The second is to strengthen civil defense. After all, in addition to using electricity to catch fire, there are other risks, and lightning. Last year, the emergency management department added 12 new fire brigades outside Shenwu Gate. We freed up some commercial areas next to Shenwu Gate to reduce commerce and ensure safety. This year, the special fire safety project for official ancient buildings, including the Forbidden City, was approved by the Ministry of Science and Technology to find the latest scientific and technological means to ensure the fire safety of the Forbidden City.
"There must be pressure, the higher the giant, the more we are 'shaking'"
China News Weekly: You took over as the president of Fan Jinshi in Dunhuang, and then went to the Forbidden City to take over as the president of Shan Jixiang. Both of these presidents took on key roles in the key stage of the development of the two hospitals, so some people say you are standing on the shoulders of the giants. What does it feel like to stand on the shoulders of giants? Is there any pressure?
Wang Xudong: must be under pressure, the higher the giant, the more "shaking" we are. In fact, the successive presidents of the two houses have made important contributions consistent with the times in different historical periods. In addition, they all became deans after they became famous and married. I cannot compare with them in terms of social experience, work accumulation, and the depth of understanding of cultural relics.
I am a cultural relics protection worker from an economically underdeveloped region in the northwest. I suddenly arrived in the capital. Facing such a large heritage site, I was very nervous and had no ideological preparation. After arriving at the Forbidden City, I found that the world was too big and it was very wonderful to see the interconnectedness between things in the world. In this position, I work for the Forbidden City, continue to work for Dunhuang, and continue to work for the protection of cultural relics across the country. Everyone is a community.
China News Weekly: Is it much more complicated to do things in the Forbidden City than Dunhuang?
Wang Xudong: When you act according to the rules, it will not be so complicated; if you do not act according to the rules and follow your own ideas, it will be quite complicated. After arriving at the Forbidden City, I had a very wonderful feeling. When facing my colleagues at the Forbidden City Museum, I felt like I was close to each other like my colleagues in Dunhuang. This is the family atmosphere that the Wenbi people have formed for a long time. But did I forget Dunhuang? That's impossible. Dunhuang raised me for 28 years, and it's impossible to forget it, but the focus must be on the Forbidden City.
China News Weekly: Last year, the Forbidden City was 600 years old. What is the special significance of this node to the Palace Museum? After 600 years, will we enter a clear new stage?
Wang Xudong: In 601, the Forbidden City was still the Forbidden City, of course it was a little older. In fact, this node is also reminding us how to find some ways to keep the 600-year legacy preserved in a true and complete manner. A series of commemorative activities are for tomorrow, not for that node.
The Palace Museum carries five thousand years of history and culture. How to explore the connotation of five thousand years of civilization and combine it with the times? When we see its openness, how can we continue to open? How can we avoid the decline caused by its once closure? Some things have not been done under the previous conditions, can we hurry up now? These are left for us to think about. Historical development is continuous, but there are peaks and troughs in the middle. We hope that through our efforts, the troughs will not be too low and the fluctuations will not be too large.
China News Weekly: 600 years after the founding of the Forbidden City, have you put forward new goals for the development of the Forbidden City?
Wang Xudong: We put forward four visions to build the Palace Museum into an international first-class museum, a model for the protection of world cultural heritage, a leader in the integration of culture and tourism, and a Chinese cultural reception room for exchanges and mutual learning between civilizations. We want our exhibitions and scholars to go out, and other countries’ exhibitions and scholars come in. In particular, I hope that young people can interact and let them realize that different civilizations are exchanged and mutual learning in history, and that the cultural genes of the Chinese nation are to pursue peace. But now many people do not know much about the world significance and value of Chinese civilization.
To create a life aesthetic for the whole society,
allows the people to share the development achievements
China News Weekly: In recent years, the Forbidden City has also taken the initiative to change and tell the story of the Forbidden City in a way that young people accept. Some documentaries and variety shows have promoted the "cultural and cultural craze", and the Forbidden City has played a very critical role. What do you think of the rise of the "cultural and cultural craze"?
Wang Xudong: The rise of the "cultural and cultural craze" is consistent with the economic and social development of the entire country. After people's material life is quite satisfied, they begin to pursue spiritual and cultural life.
Some people say that the Forbidden City is a check-in place. I think it doesn’t matter if you check in first, but if you keep checking in, it will be a bit of a waste of time. The first time is to check in, and the second time you may have to understand it more deeply. When you go there, you will understand it from a different angle and continue to deepen. From clocking in to being close, and finally gaining a cultural power and influence from it, turning it into something within us.
China News Weekly: Many people's interest in the Forbidden City is still stuck in the Qing Palace drama.
Wang Xudong: This is relatively narrow. The Forbidden City is indeed a royal palace, and this attribute can never be removed. Qinggong Drama is a literary interpretation that expresses one's own things. If you use Qing Palace Drama to get to know the Forbidden City and the Palace Museum, you will think it is too small. It is a cultural hall and the wisdom creation of the ancient working people.
Sometimes we also have to look at these things from another perspective. Why is it so exquisite? Because they are at all costs, we not only see its beauty, but also see luxury. I think we have to reflect on whether we can have a simple beauty and not luxurious beauty. If we spend more energy on creating a life aesthetic for the whole society, will the people also share the fruits of development? This is also an angle. Don’t just be amazed at the beauty and the craftsmanship is too exquisite. Young people need to think slowly, it is impossible to understand it in one go. Don’t worry, we will keep attracting young people and cultivating children’s understanding of excellent traditional culture from an early age.
The daily traffic limit of the Forbidden City has dropped from 80,000 to 40,000,
I hope all sectors of society understand
China News Weekly: Due to the epidemic, the annual audience of the Forbidden City has dropped from the peak of more than 19 million in 2019 to more than 3 million last year. What is the attitude towards openness in the future?
Wang Xudong: We have reduced the daily limit of 80,000 people to 40,000 according to the requirements of cultural relics protection and visiting quality. This is not because of the epidemic. It is based on the conditions of space, management, and tourists' experience. It is calculated that the most suitable carrying capacity of the Forbidden City every day is 40,000 people. This has begun to be implemented. Under normal circumstances, the epidemic will be implemented at 75% of the 40,000 people, which means 30,000 people per day.
One of us is responsible to our ancestors, the other is responsible to the audience, and to our descendants. We want the audience who come to the Forbidden City to have a wonderful experience and hope that all sectors of society will understand it.
China News Weekly: The previous maximum load capacity of 80,000 people still feels too much after the years of operation?
Wang Xudong: Yes, and everyone can't calm down and appreciate the visual and inner impact this cultural hall brings to us. There are people everywhere.
China News Weekly: But audiences will also feel that it is becoming increasingly difficult to grab tickets.
Wang Xudong: This is the contradiction, we are under tremendous pressure. What should I do? We must use other forms to allow people who cannot get tickets to experience the beauty of the Forbidden City through virtual reality. Now the construction of the "Digital Forbidden City" is accelerating its progress, and the digitalization of cultural relics is transformed into digital products that are both knowledgeable, interesting and ornamental, and are launched for free for everyone to share. We are still doing live broadcasts, planning some live broadcasts when flowers are in full bloom, in the most beautiful autumn, and when it snows. I have made some attempts last year, and I believe it will become the norm in the future.
China News Weekly: The epidemic has been happening for nearly two years. Has it brought you some in-depth thinking? What longer-term impacts and changes will the epidemic bring to museums?
Wang Xudong: changes can be said to be subversive because it changed the world and also changed the entire museum field. How to increase the efforts to explore the cultural connotation of museums and give people more cultural power is the first. The second is how to transform and dig out the value and let more people share it. This is definitely the biggest challenge in the future and our mission is also the one that lies in our mission.
The biggest pressure is the ability crisis, because the entire museum field is not actually ready. Our talent structure and scale do not meet the requirements of the current era for the field of cultural relics and museums. We have implemented the "Talent Plan" to allow the younger generation to grow as soon as possible through the form of teacher-led education.We are also preparing to implement the "Taihe Scholars Plan" to let scholars go out, and we also hope that scholars from other countries can enter the Forbidden City, especially the interaction between young scholars.
China News Weekly: Which areas of talent are the most in short supply?
Wang Xudong: The most scarce thing is management talents, as well as talents for cultural relics and heritage protection. The Forbidden City’s heritage is too large. If you do a good job in management in various fields, the quality and efficiency of work can be improved. Although the Forbidden City cultural relics protection team is quite strong, it is still not enough in terms of protection objects. There are talents in the fields of archaeology, humanities, social sciences, etc.
We also need a team to do transformation, which is to think about how to transform academic achievements into cultural and creative products of various forms, and we also need a group of talents who have taken root in museums. Only when a talent team within the museum is established can we cooperate with social institutions to achieve the effect of 1+1 far greater than 2.
North Campus is expected to start construction next year.
is positioned as a comprehensive modern museum
China News Weekly: Due to insufficient internal space in the Forbidden City, the North Campus was planned in Haidian (located in Xiyuhe Village, Xibeiwang Town, Haidian District, the project was launched in 2018). What progress has the North Campus now?
Wang Xudong: The first planned North Campus was because many large cultural relics in the Forbidden City had no place to preserve, repair or exhibit, but now it has far exceeded that idea. Construction should be able to start next year and will be open to the public after three to five years of hard work. At that time, the conditions for our protection and restoration, the warehouse conditions for cultural relics collection, and the exhibition conditions will be greatly improved.
North Campus Building area .1 million square meters, and the exhibition space should reach about 60,000 square meters, which is many times larger than the exhibition space of our hospital. In the future, many cultural relics that many audiences have never seen before can be exhibited there. The North Campus will provide the audience with another option to go to the cultural relics exhibition. Those who have not bought tickets to the Forbidden City will have digital exhibitions there, and you can watch the entire Forbidden City in the theater. It is a comprehensive modern museum. We are full of expectations, but it requires hard work.
China News Weekly: Many viewers are concerned about the 1.86 million sets of cultural relics in the Forbidden City. Can they be exhibited on a larger scale in the future?
Wang Xudong: does have many cultural relics, because of the restrictions on exhibition conditions, and there are also many cultural relics that cannot be well protected and repaired. Therefore, in the future, the North Campus project will play a major role in protecting research, inheriting and utilizing cultural relics, and making them alive.
China News Weekly: In recent years, the Forbidden City has introduced cultural relics exhibitions in countries such as Afghanistan , Greek , Russia and other countries. Will you see other foreign exhibitions in the Forbidden City in the future?
Wang Xudong: The future international exchanges and dialogues will be more frequent and diverse. The international exhibition next year has been prepared, and it can be launched after the epidemic is under control. Dialogue is too important. Only dialogue can eliminate misunderstandings and reduce disputes; without dialogue, all that is left is speculation and suspicion. I think the cultural relics exchange exhibition occupies an extremely important position in cultural exchange dialogue. Cultural relics are the intelligent creation of ancient working people. Through cultural relics, they can see their world outlook, values, and understanding of people. Many aspects are consistent. When we find the same point, can we put the dispute aside? The problem now is that they do not understand each other.
