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Zhang Li, Professor of at the School of Liberal Arts of Beijing Normal University,
Since 2018,
she has started to offer " Women's Literature Courses" on campus. The course
is open to the whole school and is fully booked every semester.
She also conducted a survey on "Gender Views of Our Times" among 137 contemporary Chinese writers
including Tie Ning, Yan Lianke , Chi Zijian , Bi Feiyu , Jia Pingwa ,
Alai , Lin Bai , Han Shaogong, Su Tong , Shi Shuqing ...
caused a sensation in the literary circle.
This year, her new book
"Looking in the Mirror: Women's Literature Reading Lessons" was published.
reflects on the current popular gender issues and
answers students' life confusions from classic literature, film and television images.
At a time when gender issues are frequently discussed,
interviewed Professor Zhang Li.
How should we view the image of women in popular texts? What is the gender outlook of the post-
00 generation?
Are the gender views of our era progressing?
Editor: Hong Bingchan
Editor: Ni Chujiao
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Stills of "Meng Hua Lu"
Article: How do you interpret the hotly debated "Meng Hua Lu"?
Zhang Li : It is an excellent industrial product in the audio-visual era. It can be seen that the creative team is creating a dream. And it is precisely from this dream that the value orientation of our era is reflected.
Who does the heroine want to fall in love with? In "Menghualu", the male protagonist's very important identity is that he is a high-ranking official in the system and has a powerful father. He is someone who can help the heroine solve various difficulties.
Every era has different love, and our imagination of a good lover is no longer the same.
In the 1990s, when Jin Yong novels were popular, what we loved were wandering wanderers and knights. He has no power or money, but has superb martial arts and a free soul. Will there still be stories today about a rich lady falling in love with a poor scholar? I'm afraid not. Boyfriends within the system have become the first choice for choosing a mate.
Idol dramas are trying to please the audience. You will find that today we want both morality and money; we want to reach high places, but are unwilling to look at the low ones; we want freedom and moral restraint on others. So the logic presented is full of holes.
As for what is a good woman? The answer in the play is that a good woman should not show off her sex, and her body should be clean. The great thing about Guan Hanqing is that he stands with the lowest-class women in the entertainment industry and sees the fate that "low-class women" cannot escape. However, he wants to be "copper peas that cannot be steamed or fried." .
This may be the most precious gender awareness in the original work " Zhao Pan'er Feng Yue Saves Feng Chen ", but it was abandoned during the adaptation process, which is particularly regrettable. Of course, we cannot require all female creators to be particularly female-conscious, but there is still such an expectation.
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stills from "The Peacock Flies Southeast"
: If it cannot be separated from the specific background of the era when women were not free, how should similar historical works present female consciousness? Are there any examples worth recommending?
Zhang Li : There is an article "Two Lamps" in "Strange Stories from a Chinese Studio". The story is about a man and a fox fairy falling in love and then parting ways. One night, the man and his wife were sitting in the room. They saw the fox fairy coming to say goodbye to him and told him that he was leaving. The man asked why. The woman then said that marriage has its own destiny. Then he and his slave left with two lanterns.
Mr. Wang Zengqi wrote a "Liao Zhai Xinyi" on this basis and rewrote the ending of "Double Lanterns". The previous stories are the same, but the endings are different, and they have particularly interesting conversations.
"I like you, I'm here. I'm starting to feel that I don't like you that much anymore, so I have to leave."
"Can you bear it?"
"I can't bear to leave you, but I have to leave. Us, and you People are different and cannot be improvised.”
This is a modern treatment. Pu Songling 's novel is actually about fate. When fate disappears, a woman will leave. Wang Zengqi’s understanding is that a woman who doesn’t love her and leaves can have such a sheen of freedom.
You see in "The Peacock Flies Southeast", Liu LanzhiWhen she was divorced from home, she had "a slim waist and a bright moon in her ears." When leaving her husband's house, she also had to put on beautiful clothes and exquisite make-up. Makeup goes out. The mother-in-law was furious when she saw it. She thought this would crush Liu Lanzhi, but it didn't. Liu Lanzhi's charm lies in not being disgraced or crying and begging for forgiveness. Even if she abandons her wife, she still has self-respect and dignity.
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Stills from "Raise the Red Lantern", adapted from "Honey and Concubines" 》
The book "In the Mirror" discusses the charm of Su Tong's "Wives and Concubines". Many readers feel that the female student Songlian went to the compound to be the fourth wife, but failed to win favors and failed to win over other wives, which was very disappointing. Relieve anger.
But "relieving anger" is not what a truly outstanding novelist wants to do. What he wants to write is not a pleasant drama, not a woman's pride on paper. What he wants to write is the true reality of women's survival in that era.
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"Story of Yanxi Palace" stills
one: What kind of gender issues are involved in film and television dramas about the heroine's pleasure and revenge?
Zhang Li: In some online literature and film and television dramas, women upgrade to fight monsters, with the ultimate goal of gaining his favor. When the heroine encounters a problem, the man comes to save her. The hidden meaning is to protect himself by obtaining a higher power.
here exactly reinforces the stereotype of the second gender , that is, women are protected. The audience is very happy when watching it, but they need to think carefully and be wary of the internal logic.
Another observation is that ideal women and men are loved by many people, as if this can show her/his value. This kind of imagination, to some extent, represents a lack of love and a panic of love.
But that's a lie. Because even if you are not loved by anyone, you still have value.
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"Jane Eyre" stills
article: If a work is suspected of objectifying women, how should we watch it?
Zhang Li : In "Novel Landscape" I talked about an Shen Congwen novel " Xiao Xiao ".
Xiao Xiao lives in Xiangxi . She is a child bride and has never studied. Xiao Xiao often listened to his grandfather telling stories. In the story, his grandfather described female students studying outside as monsters. It was completely unreasonable for female students to get married without hiring a matchmaker or doing housework. But Xiao Xiao didn't feel terrible after hearing these stories, and even hoped to become a female student one day. Especially after she was deceived into becoming pregnant, the first thing she did was to run away and live like a schoolgirl.
Xiao Xiao’s subjectivity is completed here. She does not listen to other people’s understanding of female students. She is an untamed listener.
What should I do if I read a work that is not so gender-conscious? Should I not read it or block it? No, we can be untamed listeners like Xiao Xiao.
"Jane Eyre" mainly tells the story of Jane Eyre and Mr. Rochester. Readers can admire Jane Eyre and be immersed in a love story, but there are still some women who choose to say no. They stand by Rochester's ex-wife. The angle, the perspective of the mad woman standing in the attic.
When you read a book or watch a movie, who you put yourself in determines the difference in the world you see. Of course we can substitute ourselves into the "big heroine", but we must also have the courage to substitute into the most inconspicuous woman, the woman who receives the most unfair treatment, because in life, we are most likely to be the latter.
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"My Genius Girlfriend" stills, adapted from " The Neapolitan Quartet "
article: Since Elena Ferrante "The Naples Quartet", female friendship has been widely discussed. However, for a long time, it was doubtful whether a woman could be a woman's friend. What makes a “good female friendship”?
Zhang Li : I think jealousy between men is also very common, but they are not stared at on a large scale. Doesn’t the so-called love and hatred between buddies include jealousy? It is an arrogant male imagination to think that women's relationships are only related to men.
I recently edited a collection of essays called "We Boil at Different Temperatures", which contains an article called "The Road Home" written by Xing Chao. She wrote about the death of her grandma and her return to her hometown for the funeral. Before the family learned that grandma passed away, they sent a message to Hongming's mother, an old lady in the next village. Grandma asked Hongming's mother to come and see her, and they talked a lot together.
Later, after grandma passed away, Hongming’s mother came to grandma’s grave and silently folded ingots. It seemed that all the friendship was in this action. At that moment, the author understood that in daily life, the silent grandma also had her partners and friends. From their youth to their twilight years, they had been each other's light.
I couldn’t read the next article for a long time after reading it, because I felt that she wrote about the friendship between the most ordinary women in our daily lives. That is mutual understanding and mutual understanding that has nothing to do with men.
Why is the "Naples Quartet" so popular? Because this is a re-examination of friendship between women. Female friendship can be inseparable and accompany women throughout their lives. And life experience also tells us that we will meet female leaders or companions. You may change someone after walking for a while, but you will meet different sisters on the long road of life.
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At the end of 2021, Zhang Li took a group photo with the graduate students after finishing the course.
One article: What made you decide to offer a women’s literature course?
Zhang Li : In 2018, I was transferred to my alma mater Beijing Normal University to teach. One day I was sitting in the living room and seemed to be suddenly awakened. Beijing Normal University was formerly known as the Women's Normal University. Li Dazhao opened the first feminist theory course in Chinese history here. Lu Xun's speech " What to do after Nora is gone " was also delivered here. One of the earliest female writers in modern times Almost everyone leaves here.
My doctoral thesis was about the first generation of female writers in China, but after more than ten years, I left this research field. I want to revive this tradition. Women’s literature and women’s culture should be a very important part of this era. It was from this year that I started the course "Research on Modern Chinese Women's Literature".
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In June 2021, discuss with young students an article on the "Good Book List of Women's Literature"
: What is the ratio of male and female students who come to take women's literature courses? Are the concerns different?
Zhang Li : It was originally a professional course in the School of Liberal Arts, but was later applied to become a general course in the school. There are about 100 students taking electives every year. There were not many male students in Beijing Normal University, but there were 10-15 in my class, which is already a pretty good ratio.
The first class is a chat about why we are interested in women’s writing.
A male classmate said that he read "Happiness" some time ago and was particularly curious about the lives of contemporary women, so he wanted to learn about the lives of the opposite sex through this course. There is also a male classmate who came here after watching "Kim Ji-young Born in 1982" and "The Handmaid's Tale". He wanted to know what contemporary Chinese women's literature is like.
I think the younger generation’s view on gender is different from what it used to be. It’s not just about men respecting women.
However, most female students have different interests from male students. They hope to understand themselves better. The reason why my new book is called "Looking in the Mirror" is that "looking in the mirror" is a common scene in women's lives: we look at ourselves in the mirror, examine ourselves, organize ourselves, and want to become more beautiful. Using literary works as a mirror, we can not only reflect our present moment, but also our history and past.
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Stills from "Home on the Slope"
item: Have female classmates raised specific practical confusions with you?
Zhang Li : For a while, there were discussions on the Internet about the impact of childbirth on women’s bodies. One student said she asked her mother about the cost of giving birth and learned that she had experienced urinary incontinence after giving birth. She was extremely frightened and told me that it was so terrible. Why did she have to endure so much pain?
That question shocked me. I am already a mother myself, so I specially asked her to take a walk with her. I told her that many sweet things need to be exchanged for pain. We long for love, but we must also realize that we may be hurt in the process of love. When we want to have children, we also experience physical pain. It's part of being human.
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stills from "The Transient Universe"
: Speaking of motherhood, the recent "Transient Universe" and "Youth Metamorphosis Plan" all revolve around the mother-daughter relationship in adolescence, and housewife literature has also entered everyone's field of vision, such as "Home on the Slope". What kind of discussions have you had with students on this topic?
Zhang Li : Yes, motherhood is a hot issue. I will also discuss it with my students. Sometimes our views are different because of our different positions and ages. For example, I often hear a saying that girls’ families of origin do a lot of harm to girls, and parents impose too much anxiety. Of course I understand this, but I will give another example.
Li Xiuwen 's prose "Actress" tells the story of a has-been middle-aged actress who is divorced and suffering from cancer, but desperately wants to be the protagonist again. Because her son said she couldn't be the protagonist because she was lazy. Therefore, she drank with her boss and even sang at the funeral, trying desperately to be the protagonist, but ultimately failed and died.
When discussing this actress, classmates would say that this is the pressure placed on women by the entire society. I said that only by becoming a mother can you know that the anxiety caused by a child to the mother is no less than the anxiety caused by the mother to the child. This is a reverse question: Other mothers are so excellent and responsible, why not you? No mother is born a mother, we are all learning to be lovers and mothers.
and Yang Benfen, an ordinary retired worker, did not publish her first book " Qiuyuan " until she was 80 years old, recording her mother's life. I once told my classmates that when a daughter is sixty or seventy years old, she still has to write about her mother, the little bits and pieces and the tough things her mother taught her. When she writes it, you will find that her mother's tenacity and hard work have been passed down to her. You just realized that a mother’s positive influence on her daughter is much more complicated than discipline and suppression.
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In 2020, Zhang Li (left) and writer Chi Zijian
article: In 2018, you conducted a gender perspective survey on writers. What do you want to explore?
Zhang Li : I had just returned to women’s literature at the time, and I wanted to know how the gender consciousness of our time had changed over the past decade or so.
The reason why I look for writers is that, firstly, literary works can secretly shape us, and secondly, the gender views of literary creators are a bit ahead and more sensitive, which is actually a high-level position in this era. If writers also reveal flaws in gender awareness, it means that the problem is more severe among the wider population.
At the beginning, I only wanted to invite some young female writers, about 33 of them. I designed 5 questions, and each person could only choose one. After the survey was published, many writers came to me and asked me why I hadn’t approached them.
At the end of 2018, I expanded the list of writers. There are 127 male and female writers in total, including emerging talents born in the 1990s and stalwarts born in the 1970s. Then, I invited 10 influential writers in literary history: Tiening, Yan Lianke, Chi Zijian, Bi Feiyu, Jia Pingwa, Alai, Lin Bai, Han Shaogong, Su Tong, and Shi Shuqing.
I actually didn’t know many writers. At that time, I thought they might not be willing to touch on such a hot topic and would receive a lot of rejections. But unexpectedly, almost all the writers responded to the email. Moreover, the answers given by teachers Yan Lianke and Jia Pingwa were handwritten on several pages, expressing the sincerity of their seniors to the maximum extent.
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A collection of essays by female writers "We Boil at Different Temperatures" edited by Zhang Li
One article: The questionnaires for male and female writers are not exactly the same. One of the questions specific to male writers is: "When writing female images, what do you encounter? Is the biggest difficulty related to gender? Do you want to overcome your own male consciousness? "Why is it set up like this?
Zhang Li : I want to remind writers through this question that male consciousness may be something you have never realized. And this is not realized, and it is precisely in need of reflection.
I know these questions are going to be offensive, but I want answers. Hopefully they realize the importance of gender awareness in writing.
Teacher Su Tong’s answer impressed me the most. I happened to meet him at a meeting that time, and he said he would answer as soon as possible. He sent me his answer that night, and one of the most widely quoted sentences is: "A writer must have the ability to be alien and of the opposite sex. When Flaubert wrote " Madame Bovary ", he had to have a heart. Emma's heart."How well said. What he means is that every writer should have the ability to cross gender when writing characters. When writing about men, he must understand men, and when writing about women, he must understand women.
Not all writers are gender-conscious, and this has something to do with the soil in which they live. For some older writers, I think their views on gender are a bit outdated. For example, they would say how can we hit women? They need our protection. This is correct, but the writer’s understanding of gender views may not stop there.Relatively speaking, for younger male writers, even if they don’t emphasize it, such as Ayi , Ge Liang , you will feel that the gender consciousness between the lines is modern, and they will discipline and reflect on themselves.
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Tie Ning, " Rose Gate " is considered to be a representative work of contemporary female literature
One article: A male writer bluntly said that he writes about women under the eyes of men. Few female writers seem to say the other way around. There seems to be something subtle here?
Zhang Li : If you compare the answers of male writers and female writers, you will find that male and female writers have different feelings of security.
Young male writers will say that I am a man and can only write about life from a male perspective, and there is nothing wrong with this answer. They are telling the truth and are very calm. But this also shows that it is safe and natural for to bravely admit his male consciousness.
Looking back at the new generation of female writers, when they talk about how to understand their female consciousness when writing, most of them will talk about it, or they will overcome the female consciousness in their works, while rarely directly admit that I have female consciousness. Awareness .
When I read these answers, I can feel the insecurity of female writers. It is their lack of confidence in their female consciousness and their fear of being criticized.
In the 1980s, Zhang Jie wrote " Love Is Unforgettable " and wrote about spiritual infidelity. Many readers will accuse her of writing about herself. This is very common in the history of reading works by female writers. Readers will superimpose the writer and the character.
However, almost no male writer will be identified as himself, and even if he is himself, few people will criticize him. Why do women feel evasive and insecure when writing? Because she was under too much pressure, she had to take into account her own actual survival.
one: It has been a hundred years since the May Fourth Women’s Liberation Movement. From two dimensions: reality and literature, do you think the gender issue has made progress or is it more conservative?
Zhang Li : From my point of view, it is progress now, because the problems that were ignored in the past have become problems today.
For example, women have been abducted and trafficked, but now, it is not just a few voices, but the entire society at all levels are angry and cannot tolerate it. The water level in our ideas about gender is rising, and our tolerance isn’t what it used to be.
Chinese women’s writing is making progress. I do not use the emergence of female writers or works as an indicator, but the participation of ordinary women in writing as an observation point.
Even though there is not a single famous female writer in our era, there are more and more unknown women taking up writing . This is the true light of women’s writing. For example, Fan Yusu , Yu Xiuhua , and there are more and more female workers in the film, television and art industries, and there are even women seeking to have their voices heard in short videos.
We clearly feel that everything is changing.
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Wang Anyi , the representative work " Song of Everlasting Sorrow ", in addition to women's literature, is also considered to be the representative of Shanghai style literature
article: Women's writing was once considered to have never left the "bedroom and living room", and has developed all the way to the present. What have changed?
Zhang Li : I have edited the "New Women's Writing Album", and last year founded the "Women's Literature Best Books List" to lead young people to recommend works to readers. However, every time I discuss it, I will have regrets about contemporary women's literary creation. Frankly speaking, there are no works in contemporary literature that can truly focus on the survival of women today and have a wide impact.
Literary creation depends on heaven, and it is not written just when you want to. It may be there the next second we interview, or it may not wait for 10 years.
One thing is certain, women’s writing is passed down from generation to generation and needs to accumulate a sufficient base from generation to generation. When the soil of gender changes, a different female writer or female literary works will appear.
In 1925, the first batch of Chinese female college students graduated. In school, they received the same education as their male classmates. However, when they entered society, they found it difficult to find a job. Their lives were very different from what they imagined.
Chen Hengzhe Such an excellent woman got rid of the old-style marriage contract and fell in love freely, got married and had children. Later, she discovered that even though she and her husband were both university professors, they were still in different situations. She had to sacrifice her research for childcare.
It was also at that time that their female subjectivity emerged and they began to realize the differences between men and women. By the 1940s, Xiao Hong, Zhang Ailing, Ding Ling all burst out with strong creative power. these all have the background of the times.
Around the world, most of the works of female writers in the 1960s and 1970s like to write about the bedroom and living room. The reason is very simple, because her scope of activities is so wide, and the era and environment have not allowed them to see the larger world. Not allowed to pursue a wider range of professions.
Moreover, these women are often interrupted when writing. Sometimes their children cry, and sometimes they have to cook. So Woolf mentioned that in order for a great female writer to appear, women must first have a "room alone" , which is a metaphor for leisure and money, because writing requires a large amount of time for careful conception.
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Lin Bai, whose representative work is "One Person's War", she spoke frankly about herself during the investigation The female writing identity
Back in the 1980s in China, various feminist theories were introduced. Women's writing was very prosperous at that time. Tie Ning published "Rose Gate", as well as Wang Anyi's "Three Loves", Zhang Jie's "The Ark" ", they all have a strong gender consciousness.
html In the 1990s, under the influence of the third wave of feminist thought, women's literature was once a prominent school.
There was also a slogan at that time that women should write about their own bodies. At this time, commercial hype and consumerism came, and the title "beauty writer" appeared. Gradually, women's "body writing" was stigmatized, and the creators No longer willing to admit that she is a woman writing, women’s literature and women’s writing were in a very low state in the late 1990s.
In recent years, , the study of women's literature has not only occurred within the discipline. With the trend of social thought, it has returned to a state where more people are paying attention.. If you look at the works of current Chinese female writers, the life they express is no longer just about the bedroom and living room.
For example, in the writings of Li Juan, there are almost no these two places, but the distant Altay, a broader world. She writes about her grandmother and mother, who live a comfortable and complete life. Even women are not in love but are living happily.
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Chen Ran, "Private Life" is considered to be the representative work of women's writing in the 1990s.
One article: I would like to ask the teacher to recommend some feminist books.
Zhang Li : Zhang Ailing's " Golden Lock " and Tie Ning's "Rose Gate" must be read to help us understand the truth in the world. I also like Yang Benfen's "Autumn Garden" very much. I can see the profound influence of a mother on her daughter.Academic monographs such as "Invisible Women: The Sociology of Family Matters", as well as "The Second Sex", "The Handmaid's Tale" and "A Room of One's Own" are all enlightening and worth reading.
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