印尼網友：印尼落後中國多少年？它能在20年內複製中國的成就嗎？

回顧改革開放四十年，中國創造出一套與中國實際國情不斷相適應的經濟模式。而這套經濟模式也給中國帶來飛躍式的成長，短短几十年的時間，中國從貧窮落後的國家，一躍成為全球第二大經濟體，這套中國經濟模式也引來多個新興經濟體的多方位的效仿，時任印尼貿易部長的馮慧蘭稱，印尼將會參考中國成功的經濟特區的經驗。在美版知乎Quora上，印尼網友提問道：印尼落後中國多少年？它能在20年內複製中國的成功嗎？這個問題引起各國網友的熱議，我們看看他們的觀點。

問題：印尼可以在二十年內複製中國的成功嗎？二者相差多少年？

捷克網友埃米爾•奧普力撒的回答

It seems that everyone in the world thinks that China's experience can be copied, but the fact is that China's advantages are very unique.

似乎世界上每個人都認為中國的經驗可以複製，但事實是，中國的優勢非常獨特。

Most people believe that China's economic miracle began with the "reform and opening up" policy in the 1980s. However, this is a common misunderstanding.

大多數人認為，中國的經濟奇蹟始於20世紀80年代的“改革開放”政策，然而，這是一個常見的誤解。

"Industrialization" is an important word that needs special mention in China's development. Before opening its doors, China was already a fully industrialized country. This means that China has sufficient qualified labor force (including workers and engineers), perfect supply chain system and transportation system, and the ability to replicate almost all primary and intermediate products. What it lacks is only capital, technology and management experience. These are what China needs and what Western investors can bring to China.

“工業化”是中國發展中需要特別提到的重要詞彙。在打開國門之前，中國已經是一個完全工業化的國家。這意味着中國有充足的合格勞動力（包括工人和工程師），完善的供應鏈系統和運輸系統，以及複製幾乎所有初中級產品的能力，它所缺少的只是資金、技術和管理經驗。這些是中國需要的，也是西方投資者可以帶給中國的。

For example, when you want to invest in a toy factory in China, the process is basically as follows:

舉一個例子，當你想在中國投資一家玩具廠時，過程基本如下：

First, you must deal with the local government. In China, especially in the previous years (1980-2010), how much investment they attracted is a key indicator to evaluate the performance of local officials. Therefore, they will do their best to provide you with the most attractive support so that you can invest there. There is no need to worry about the location and supporting facilities of the factory. The local people will handle it well.

首先，你必須與當地政府打交道。在中國，特別是在前幾年（1980-2010年），他們吸引了多少投資是評估地方官員政績的一個關鍵指標。因此，他們會盡最大努力為您提供最具吸引力的支持，讓您在那裡投資。工廠的位置和配套設施基本不用擔心，當地人會處理好的。

Then you need to hire some advanced knowledge talents. In the early days, China could provide 1 million college graduates every year. Now, the number has exceeded 7 million. They are a well-educated workforce and usually have sufficient English / other foreign language skills for daily communication. You can recruit any number of employees from the market.

然後你需要僱傭一些高級知識人才。中國早期每年可提供100萬名大學畢業生，現在這個數字超過了700萬。他們是受過良好教育的勞動力，通常有足夠的英語/其他外語技能進行日常交流，你可以從市場上招聘任何數量的員工。

We often talk about China's low labor cost. Most people only see the wage part and ignore the efficiency part. In most cases, you can't directly send the farmers to the factory, which will cause confusion in management. Modern industry needs highly disciplined and efficient labor.

我們經常談論中國的低勞動力成本，大多數人只看到工資部分，而忽視了效率部分。在大多數情況下，你不能直接把農民送到工廠，那管理起來會很混亂，現代工業需要紀律嚴明、效率高的勞動力。

Almost all Chinese workers have completed nine years of basic education, and China's basic education system is carefully designed for industrial purposes. Many other countries have lower labor costs but are far less efficient than Chinese workers.

幾乎所有中國工人都完成了9年的基礎教育，中國的基礎教育體系就是為工業目的而精心設計的。許多其他國家的勞動力成本更低，但效率遠低於中國工人。

After purchasing and installing machines in the factory, the factory can now start production. Electricity is a big problem in India and other countries. China has the capacity to generate 1.525 billion kilowatts per hour. You need not worry about it at all.

在工廠購買並安裝機器後，工廠現在就可以開始生產了。電力在印度等國家是很大的問題，中國有能力每小時發電15.25億千瓦，你完全不必為此擔心。

電網

In the toy industry, different toys may require labels, plastic and textile components. In addition, painting, polishing and packaging are also required during the manufacturing process. Therefore, you need support from processing plants, petrochemical industries, textile mills, dye factories, grinding wheel factories and paper mills. You can easily find corresponding partners in the local area, which makes your supply chain management easier. In other words, it can save you time and money.

在玩具行業，不同的玩具可能需要標籤、塑料和紡織部件。此外，在製造過程中，還需要噴漆、拋光和包裝過程。因此，需要來自加工廠、石化行業、紡織廠、染料廠、砂輪廠和造紙廠的支持，你可以在當地輕易找到相應的合作方，這讓您的供應鏈管理起來更容易，換句話說，它可以節省你的時間和金錢。

When products are produced, you need to send them to your dealers. The Chinese government is famous for its crazy infrastructure construction. In China, people think that if a place wants to get rich, it needs to build roads first. Almost every village in China has a convenient road system. It has a high-speed railway network, thousands of ports and airports, so China's transportation is not a problem.

產品生產出來，你需要把它們寄給你的經銷商，中國政府以其瘋狂的基礎設施建設而聞名。在中國，人們認為，如果一個地方想致富，首先需要修路。中國幾乎每個村莊都有便捷的道路系統。它擁有高速鐵路網、數千個港口和機場，因此，中國的交通不是問題。

Now you see, you just need to bring your money and management experience to China, and then you can get everything you want.

現在你看，你只需要把你的錢和管理經驗帶到中國，然後你就能得到你想要的一切。

I am not familiar with Indonesia. How many years before it can realize the advantages I mentioned above? Only by doing so can Indonesia replicate and even surpass China's success.

我對印度尼西亞不熟悉。多少年後它才能實現我上面提到的優勢？只有做到這幾點，印度尼西亞才能複製甚至超越中國的成功。

越南網友利夫汗的回答

I have been to these two countries. It can be said that the urbanization level of Indonesia still lags far behind that of China. I have visited rural areas in Indonesia, but not in China. Although I think the difference between them is not as obvious as the difference between the major urban centers of the two countries. The long road I mentioned earlier is also relative. Depending on various factors, it may take 20 to 50 years for Indonesia to reach China's development level.

我去過這兩個國家，可以說，印度尼西亞的城市化程度仍然遠遠落後於中國的城市化水平。我曾訪問過印度尼西亞的農村地區，但沒有訪問過中國的農村地區。儘管我認為，他們之間的差異不像兩國主要城市中心之間的差異那麼明顯。我前面提到的漫長道路也是相對的。取決於多種因素，印度尼西亞要達到中國的發展水平可能需要20到50年的時間。

I think Indonesia can imitate China to a certain extent, but there are some major differences between the two countries. From a geographical point of view, there are advantages and disadvantages.

我認為印度尼西亞可以在一定程度上效仿中國，但兩國之間存在一些重大差異。從地理角度來看，有優勢也有劣勢。

First, Indonesia is the largest archipelago in the world, which means that infrastructure construction may be more difficult and expensive. In addition, this may lead to more unbalanced economic development, for example, it will lead to the development of islands such as Java much faster than Sulawesi. But this may also be an advantage, because most cities with large population can obtain the cheapest mode of transportation: sea transportation.

首先，印度尼西亞是世界上最大的群島，這意味着基礎設施建設可能更加困難和昂貴。此外，這可能導致經濟發展更加不平衡，例如，這會導致爪哇這樣的島嶼比蘇拉威西島發展得快得多。但這也可能是一個優勢，因為大多數人口聚集的城市都能獲得最便宜的運輸方式：海運。

In terms of geographical location, Indonesia is located in the busiest sea and land center in the world, with great geographical advantages. If properly developed, this will bring great benefits. Indonesia can export its goods and services to the two largest markets in the world. There is no doubt that both India and China will surpass the United States at some point and become the world's leading economies. It is only a matter of time.

就地理位置而言，印度尼西亞位於世界上最繁忙的海陸中心，具有巨大的地緣優勢。如果開發得當，這將帶來巨大的好處。印度尼西亞可以向世界上最大的兩個市場出口其商品和服務。毫無疑問，印度和中國都將在某一點上超過美國，成為世界領先經濟體，這只是時間問題。

Compared with China, Indonesia obviously does not have a large area of land and a rich climate belt. This brings obvious advantages to China, because China's scale brings greater opportunities for specific types of development. The vast geographical area also means that there are more resources in almost all categories. From subtropical to subarctic, China can grow more kinds of crops and plants.

與中國相比，印度尼西亞所不具備的顯然是大片土地和豐富的氣候帶。這給中國帶來了明顯的優勢，因為中國的規模為特定類型的發展帶來了更大的機會。廣闊的地理面積也意味着在幾乎所有門類上都有更多的資源。從亞熱帶到亞北極，中國可以種植更多種類的作物和植物。

Another thing that sets China apart from countries like Indonesia is its form of government. Its government can carry out large-scale projects more easily because it can more easily remove the "obstacles" on the road of these projects.

另一件讓中國從印度尼西亞此類國家脫穎而出的事情是它的政府形式。它的政府更輕鬆地開展大規模項目，因為它可以更容易地消除這些項目道路上的“障礙”。

One sensitive point that no one wants to talk about is religion. Although no one will admit this, some enterprises may be reluctant to invest here for fear of the rise of extremism. China is a typical secular country, and its environment is much more relaxed. I do not want to discuss this issue further because I do not want to derail this discussion.

一個沒有人願意談論的敏感點是宗教。儘管沒有人會承認這一點，但可能有一些企業因為擔心極端主義抬頭而不願在此投資，而中國是一個典型的世俗國家，其環境要寬鬆得多。我不想進一步討論這個問題，因為我不想讓這次討論脫軌。

On the whole, I believe that Indonesia's future will be bright, because it is at the crossroads of the two largest players on the world stage, benefiting from a large and young population and some impressive resources. It is hard to say that this success will be achieved in the next 20 years, but considering the pace of development in the world today and the scale and speed of changes in these parts of the world in the past few decades, it is not impossible.

總的來說，我相信印度尼西亞的未來將是光明的，因為它處於世界舞台上兩個最大角色的十字路口，受益於龐大、年輕的人口和一些令人印象深刻的資源。很難說這一成功會在未來20年內實現，但考慮到當今世界的發展步伐，以及過去幾十年在世界這些地區發生的變革的規模和速度，這不是不可能。

I just hope that Indonesia can learn from China's experience and focus on renewable energy, recycling and sustainability in a more environmentally friendly way from the beginning. Indonesia is the guardian of the only primitive rainforests in this region of the world. For the sake of future generations, I hope it can complete its task.

我只希望印度尼西亞能從中國的經驗中吸取教訓，從一開始就以更環保的方式，專註於可再生能源、循環利用和可持續性。印度尼西亞是世界上該地區僅存的一些原始雨林的守護者，為了子孫後代，我希望它能夠完成自己的任務。

印尼網友艾倫•羅哈斯的回答

As an Indonesian, I think Indonesia lags behind China for 30 years in infrastructure and economic development.

作為一個印尼人，我認為印尼在基礎設施和經濟發展方面落後中國30年。

Infrastructure - within a few decades, China can even build roads in Yunnan and Sichuan provinces, which are far away from Shanghai and Guangzhou. China already has an extensive high-speed railway network, and Indonesia's idea is still under discussion.

基礎設施-在幾十年內，中國甚至能夠在距離上海和廣州很遠的雲南和四川等省份修建公路，中國已經擁有廣泛的高速鐵路網絡，而印度尼西亞的設想還存在於討論中。

Technology - within a decade, China has become a leader in drone Technology (DJI) and electric vehicles. While Indonesia still relies on Japanese and Chinese companies to invest in the automobile manufacturing industry in Indonesia, in fact, we are still importing basic manufacturing machinery from China. For decades, the only Indonesian company that has occupied the overseas market is indomie.

技術-在十年內，中國已經成為無人機技術（DJI）的領導者，也是電動汽車的領導者。而印度尼西亞仍然依賴日本和中國公司在印度尼西亞投資汽車製造業，事實上，我們仍在從中國進口基本製造機器。幾十年來，唯一佔領海外市場的印尼公司是Indomie。

Fortune - 20 years ago, we thought China was a poor socialist country. Now, we are attracting them to Indonesia because we need their RMB. China's per capita GDP (PPP) is much higher than Indonesia's, which means their living standards are much higher.

財富-20年前，我們認為中國是一個貧窮的社會主義國家，而現在，我們正在吸引他們來印度尼西亞，因為我們需要他們的人民幣。中國的人均GDP（PPP）遠高於印度尼西亞，這意味着他們的生活水平要高得多。

China has better policies and willpower to develop the country and bring wealth to its citizens. For example, the government has begun to focus on the development of renewable energy, while Indonesia only connected Banten to Central Java by highway last year.

中國有更好的政策和意志力來發展國家，從而為公民帶來財富。例如，政府已經開始專註於開發可再生能源，而印度尼西亞去年才通過高速公路把萬丹連接到中爪哇。

Obviously, we still have a long way to go in meeting Chinese standards, which requires more than willpower and government policies. Even developed countries such as Japan have failed in technology, let alone Indonesia.

顯然，我們在達到中國標準方面還有很長的路要走，這需要的不僅僅是意志力和政府政策。就連日本這樣的發達國家在技術方面已經力不從心了，更不用說印度尼西亞了。

Please note to those who have comments in the comment area:

評論區有意見的各位請注意：

Some people are unhappy with me that Indonesia is 30 years behind China. The Indonesian people have the ability to develop like China, but they do not have the political will to develop. I said that I did not consider political factors in my reply. Let's discuss:

有一些人對我說印度尼西亞在中國落後30年感到不快。印度尼西亞人民有能力像中國一樣發展，但沒有發展的政治意願，說我在回答中沒有考慮政治因素，那我們就探討一下：

For the past 10 years, before the current president, Indonesia has been led by an extremely incompetent president. He is one of the reasons why Indonesia lags behind. Now, Indonesia is lucky to have president jokowi. If we are still ruled by him in the next 20 years, I think Indonesia can catch up with China soon.

在過去的10年里，在現任總統之前，印度尼西亞由一位極其無能的總統領導。他是印度尼西亞落後的原因之一。現在，印尼很幸運有佐科維總統。如果我們在未來20年仍然由他統治，我認為印度尼西亞可以很快趕上中國。

What people have not considered is that in the worst case of corrupt politicians like fadley Zong or Fahri Hamza or Norwood Habib rizik coming to power in the future, Indonesia will fall into chaos, which may kill the development of Indonesia. In addition, honest politicians like ahok were imprisoned. This is my question to you. If an honest politician is imprisoned for a mistake made by these corrupt politicians, how will a country develop???

人們沒有考慮的是未來像法德利·宗或法赫里·哈姆扎或諾克伍德·哈比卜·里齊克這樣的腐敗政客上台的最壞情況，印尼將陷入一片混亂，可能會扼殺印尼的發展。此外，像阿霍克這樣的誠實政治家也被監禁了。這是我向你們提出的問題，如果一個誠實的政治家因為一個錯誤而被監禁，而這個錯誤是由這些腐敗的政客們製造的，那麼一個國家將如何發展？？？

菲律賓網友阿瑞爾•利塔瓦的回答

China is several light years ahead of Indonesia.

中國比印度尼西亞領先幾光年。

1. China has the most extensive high-speed train network in the world, while Indonesia has only recently begun to build a line with the help of China.

1.中國擁有世界上最廣泛的高速列車網絡，而印度尼西亞在中國的幫助下最近才開始修建一條線路。

2. China plans to build 100 nuclear power plants. Meanwhile, Indonesian officials said that we would have to wait 100 years to have a nuclear power plant (this was mentioned in an article a few years ago). Needless to say, the Indonesian people are constantly being promoted for fear that this is the only known environmentally sound and powerful sustainable energy source.

2.中國計劃建造100座核電站，與此同時，印尼官員表示，我們要等100年才能擁有一座核電站（幾年前的一篇文章中提到了這一點）。更不用說，印度尼西亞人民不斷受到宣傳，擔心這是唯一已知的無害環境和強大的持續能源來源。

3. Indonesia's Lapan only plans to develop a space launch vehicle in the 1930s. Like all Indonesian government plans, it is not sure whether they will really do so.

3.印度尼西亞的拉潘只計劃在21世紀30年代開發一種空間運載火箭，正如印度尼西亞所有政府計劃一樣，目前還不確定他們是否真的會這樣做。

4. China has its own aircraft carrier, while the Indonesian navy lacks the fuel for effective operation.

4.中國有自己的航空母艦，與此同時，印度尼西亞海軍缺乏有效運作所需的燃料。

5.China has the world's fastest supercomputer tianhe-2, and Indonesia has no one to compare with it.

5.中國擁有世界上最快的超級計算機天河二號，印尼沒有任何一台可以與之相比。

6. Since the 1980s, China has built expressways that can fill Java island and Sumatra island. During the administration of President jokowi in Indonesia, I suspect that we only built more than 1000 kilometers in the same period.

6.自20世紀80年代以來，中國修建的高速公路可以填滿爪哇島和蘇門答臘島。印度尼西亞在佐科維總統管理時期，我懷疑我們在同一時期只建造了1000多公里。

7. China is a nuclear power, and Indonesia signed the nuclear non proliferation treaty before it possessed a nuclear bomb.

7.中國是一個核大國，印度尼西亞在擁有一枚核彈之前簽署了《核不擴散條約》。

8. China has Tencent, BYD and Huawei, and Indonesia has nothing to compare with these giants.

8.中國有騰訊、比亞迪、華為，印度尼西亞沒有任何東西可以與這些巨人相比。

9. China manufactures its own tanks, missiles and fighter planes, while Indonesia is the purchaser.

9.中國製造自己的坦克、導彈和戰鬥機，而印度尼西亞是採購方。

南水北調

10. China is currently building the world's largest water diversion project to solve the water shortage problem in Beijing. Indonesia can only solve this problem by selling the water supply company in Jakarta to Lyon and praying. OK, there is a project in West Java to siphon more water from the reservoir, but this is only a temporary solution, like adding more straws to the same glass of water.

10.中國目前正在建設世界上最大的引水工程，以解決北京的水資源短缺問題。印度尼西亞只能通過將雅加達的供水公司出售給法國里昂公司並祈禱解決了這個問題。好的，西爪哇有一個從水庫中虹吸更多水的項目，但這只是一個臨時解決方案，就像在同一杯水中添加更多的吸管。

Do I need to continue the list?

我需要繼續列下去嗎？